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> [WAU Articles] “CRUTCH”, By Nathan Pullen
vanwolfgang
post Jun 6 2011, 07:36 PM
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Article for discussion here.


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cmdr_roy
post Jun 6 2011, 09:19 PM
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Dear Cryx: try playing without character 'jacks

Dear Menoth: try playing without Choir and the Avatar

Dear Khador: try playing without an arc node

Dear Cygnar: try playing with theme lists

Dear Mercs: try playing to win

Dear Retribution: try playing without stuff

Dear Minions: try playing without many options

Dear Legion: try playing without Seraphs

Dear Skorne: try playing without Molik

Dear Circle: try playing some games

Dear Trolls: try playing without the Stone

This post has been edited by cmdr_roy: Jun 7 2011, 09:33 AM


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RudeBoy
post Jun 6 2011, 09:25 PM
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I thought PP was perfectly balanced......apparently tongue.gif

This post has been edited by RudeBoy: Jun 6 2011, 09:25 PM


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cmdr_roy
post Jun 6 2011, 09:30 PM
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It is.
Its just some people cant get over using certain units.


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morsla
post Jun 6 2011, 09:48 PM
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Good article (and a well-thrown gauntlet) Nathan!

Leigh - I've played, or played against, all the Dear Faction suggestions in your post over the past six months smile.gif

Everyone gets something different from the games they enjoy, though. Lately I've been trying more of the "leave one thing in the list" approach (pick someone that you want to learn about, and keep putting it in your lists until you understand it properly) instead of the "take something out" approach. It's a good way of forcing yourself to improve your game, especially with new warcasters.


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Skell
post Jun 6 2011, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE(RudeBoy @ Jun 6 2011, 09:25 PM) *

I thought PP was perfectly balanced......apparently tongue.gif


Close enough. Unfortunately, they players aren't, well unfortunate for everyone else >:)


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EuroChild
post Jun 7 2011, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE(cmdr_roy @ Jun 6 2011, 08:49 PM) *
Dear Cygnar: try playing with theme lists
Does a 15pt tier 2 Kraye list count?


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HairyDave
post Jun 7 2011, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE(cmdr_roy @ Jun 6 2011, 09:19 PM) *

Dear Cryx: try playing without character 'jacks

Dear Menoth: try playing without Choir and the Avatar

Dear Khador: try playing without an arc node

Dear Cygnar: try playing with theme lists

Dear Mercs: try playing to win

Dear Minions: try playing without many options

Dear Legion: try playing without Seraphs

Dear Skorne: try playing without Molik

Dear Circle: try playing some games

Dear Trolls: try playing without the Stone


Dear Retribution: feel free to go nuts smile.gif


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Jyggdrasil
post Jun 7 2011, 06:41 AM
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I often run a pair of slayers in place of the DeathJack. I wouldn't say it is a less effective use of points, but rather that the effect is more dispersed.


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Desert_Spiral
post Jun 7 2011, 09:27 AM
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Whilst i do appreciate a lot of what you are saying, and clearly a lot of the responders concur with, allow for a moment an alternate perspective.

For instance, when you say the following:
"It is well accepted medical practice that an overdependence on a crutch results in permanent (and sometimes irreversible) damage to a patient."

Would it not also be fair to say (continuing the Medical metaphor), that a doctor using the sharpest scalpel is more likely to competantly complete the procedure?
Not ideal, or completely accurate but hopefully the point was made.

Another thing is that the defenition of a crutch is wholly subjective. Your point on Sword knights for instance is mirrored by several of my Cygnar friends, whilst the Cyclone seems more contentious.

I'm all for trying new things, and am constantly adopting new or different elements into my strategies, but when push comes to shove - there are top tier choices and there are those that aren't. In a tournament where i'm hoping to do well, i would be remiss if i took a choice just to appear as though i weren't fielding 'crutches'.

For social games though knock yourself out smile.gif.


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DancingPigeon
post Jun 7 2011, 09:30 AM
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I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't take the forums as gospel- that the hivemind isn't always correct, and that, for the most part, the gap that separates units on the power curve is fairly small, and largely altered by their accompaniments.

I'm not sure I agree with the rest though- people can play what they want, and tournament level warmachine can be a competitive game. If a certain choice of unit/warjack/warcaster is the best for a certain player/caster/faction combination, then all power to them- take it, bring your worst and play your hardest (without being a dick about it).

Rather then trying to insist players play something different, I'd rather the article delivered the message that players should make up their own minds about combinations of units through extensive playtesting, and that for the most part, the theorymachine of the forums/hivemind is wrong, or highly inflated.

This post has been edited by DancingPigeon: Jun 7 2011, 09:31 AM
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Terry
post Jun 7 2011, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(DancingPigeon @ Jun 7 2011, 09:30 AM) *
Rather then trying to insist players play something different, I'd rather the article delivered the message that players should make up their own minds about combinations of units through extensive playtesting, and that for the most part, the theorymachine of the forums/hivemind is wrong, or highly inflated.


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ArchonCryx
post Jun 7 2011, 04:50 PM
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Whya I supposed to use Character Jacks? Is that a reason why I think Chickens are the only decent Jacks in Cryx? smile.gif


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Kosick
post Jun 7 2011, 07:03 PM
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Great article mate.

Reminds me of the days of Prime, Sorcsha was an epic crutch. "Lets see you win without the Ice Bitch for once!!" lol


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nasher
post Jun 7 2011, 07:03 PM
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Having a quick look it seems the main thrust of the discussion is. That the lists are always the same and it gets boring to play vs them over and over again?.

Now bar restricting certain units, and/or changing the way you win / lose games, non of which I can see working without having your community in an uproar, there doesn't seem to be a lot you can do.Your game is stuck with winning at all costs, the only goal, and hence optimal units being the only real choice in a competative game. So cookie cutter armies for the "Oh not again list syndrome". biggrin.gif
So my advice is PP need to balance the game, I think you need another edition( or two) and somehow make each and every unit worth taking. Take the inbalance out of some units and bring balance to those that are less useful and you'll see bigger variety of armies and a healthier scene IMO. Also the most successful games have more then one way to win, which you have, so there's a good point to work on. Still you need perhaps look at how to score things differently as win / draw/ loss isn't perhaps the best method. ?? Maybe a bigger spread Big win / small win/ draw/ small loss / big loss.

Anyway I post here as the main reason I don't play this game is because of the "CRUTCH" . Really not interested but if the game is turned around without the need of them I'd have another look.






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morsla
post Jun 7 2011, 07:07 PM
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Nasher - it's more that there are a few models that almost always make it into lists. Forum groupthink doesn't help... though each year, someone wins a major tournament with a list that had been disregarded out of hand by people following the tactics forums. There are a lot of unexpectedly good combinations hidden out there - that suggests a well balanced game, with some poorly balanced (or plain unimaginative) players smile.gif


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post Jun 7 2011, 07:35 PM
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I hope that post was a wind up Nasher. You admit to not playing, you obviously have little knowlegde of the game or how meta effects army builds, yet you suggest how to fix PP "Balance issues".

Is it April 1st?


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Desert_Spiral
post Jun 7 2011, 07:37 PM
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@ nasher

Maybe it's just me but I could have sworn scenario's were an alternate way to achieve victory - usually through tactical supremacy.

Decrying a fame as unbalanced and broken is not only counter productive but serious trolling! You don't play the game, and you aren't interested barring to pnm so why come into a WM article?

I write WM articles too, and even though this is an opinion piece - the audience is WM players. Please could you refrain from passive aggressive attacks on a system that has a huge amount of internal balance. Granted some things are better others are just perceived as better and this is far from unique to WM, so much so that no war game can be held accountable to such lofty standards.

No two units, without being identical will be equal...

There will always be some units that are just more generally useful and that transcends all games and systems.

War gamers should be free to play whatever they want without social stigmatism - especially not from hecklers with no interest or apparent experience (based on your assertion of not playing the game).

I don't wish to be getting riled over this but I honestly wish everyone would grow up and realize these are games we love! If your sole love is to hate it then please do so from dignified silence and let others enjoy themselves.


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DancingPigeon
post Jun 7 2011, 07:42 PM
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Too often threads on WAU get sidetracked for 4-5 pages from one uninformed throwaway post/comment.

While I don't agree with it 100%, the article is well written- lets try and discuss its merits/flaws without getting distracted by obvious trolls.
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JKane
post Jun 7 2011, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE(nasher @ Jun 7 2011, 07:03 PM) *
Anyway I post here as the main reason I don't play this game is because of the "CRUTCH" . Really not interested but if the game is turned around without the need of them I'd have another look.


Umm I think you've misinterpreted the point of his article and jumped to your own conclusions (perhaps reading it as you want it to, thereby justifying your decision to not try the game?). He is saying that army lists tend to take one or two of the same things (kind of like in WFB most dark elf lists have a hydra etc). The lists themselves are hugely varied in terms of the casters and units that you see across the table. And what I love most about it is that every faction is as competitive as any other so the variety you see in the game really is massive. Consider the fact that there are 11 main factions, and most of these have been 8 and 12 casters alone, all of which are competitive, and then there's the huge choice of units, warjacks/beasts and solos.

Also I've never understood the "win at all costs" tline which some people who haven't played before tend to throw at the game as a way of putting it down. As outlined the variety in the game is bigger than most and there's no unbeatable WAAC combinations. The fact is a lot of WM/H players take less optimal lists or stuff that isn't highly regarded on the internet. And most people that play at tournaments regardless of the system are there to try and win against their opponent and so I think it's a bit naive to say that WM/H is any different. The atmosphere at the WM/H tournaments I've attended has been excellent - good tight games but not taken too seriously and the opportunity for a laugh and a chat with your opponent after the game. smile.gif



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