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> Traitor Legions Supplement., First Impressions of the new book
Spakka
post Dec 10 2016, 08:49 AM
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Did a quick Squizz over it last night. Some interesting things in there:

Some general rules for all legions:
- Any detachment with Chaos Space Marines Faction can be from one of the 9 traitor legion detachment. The detachment retains the chaos marine faction, but has additional modifications:

- All units in Traitor legion detachments that can get VOTLW get it for free.
- Units cannot take marks of Chaos in Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors or Night Lords armies. Any units that automatically have marks cannot be taken (ie. Zerkers, Plague marines, etc).
- Units in Black Legion and Word Bearers detachments can get any mark of Chaos.
- Units in World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperors Children detachments can only take the mark of their relevant patron god.
- Cannot take Unique characters in Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lord or Word Bearer detachments. Rest can only take their legion specific character (ie, Abaddon in Black legion, Kharn in World Eaters, etc).

Each legion also gets its own relic and warlord traits tables, but I won't list that now (will do that later). Also will get to some the new smaller formations for Plague Marines and Noise marines later on too.

Now, on to the individual legions and their rules:.

Black Legion:
Legion Traits:
- Chosen AND Terminators are now troops choices in BL detachments.
- Improved Hatred - now re-roll hits in each round of combat vs Armies of Imperium.

Big Black Legion Detachment
- Fear + Crusader USRs on all non vehicle units.
- lets deep striking units roll to come on turn 1, on a 3+.
- If warlord can deep strike, you can choose to have him come on automatically on turn 1.
- They can get all the formations from the Black Legion Supplement, still exclusive to Black Legion.

Overall kinda meh in my eyes. Some nice buffs, but the big detachment looks like it is going to be rather expensive to field if you want to make good use of the Deep Strike buff.
However, if you ever wanted to do a pure Chaos Terminator list, now you can if you use a CAD.

Alpha Legion:
Legion Traits:
- Chosen are Troops instead of Elites.
- Chosen, regular CSM and Cultist units have infiltrate.
- If warlord dies, pick another character in the army and it becomes the warlord. Even get to roll a new warlord trait for the new warlord. This can happen multiple times in a game. Opponent can only get Slay the warlord point if they take out every single Alpha legion character in the army.

Alpha's big Detachment bonuses are:
- all non vehicle units get shrouded on turn 1 (similar to raven guard).
- Any destroyed Cultist units come back on a 4+, will count as being part of whatever formation the original cultist unit was part of.

Edit: Okay, I initially misread the cultist buff. The Alpha's formation ability looks like it stacks with the Lost and the Damned rule, so potentially every time a cultist squad dies, you can get up to 2 new squads back on a 4+. Which is pretty nuts.

Otherwise, they get shrouded on turn 1 like the raven guard. Combined with infiltrate and cover, it could be fun to drop a whole army of infantry with potential 2+ cover into opponents half of the table during deployment so the whole army is in range on turn 1.

Personally, I think Alpha's will be better off as a regular CAD army though, since you can make really good use of those infiltrating Chosen troops.

Iron Warriors:
Legion Traits:
- Units with VOTLW get FNP 6+.
- Oblits/Mutliators are troops choices in Iron Warriors detachments.
- havocs, oblits, mutilators have tank hunters, Add 1 to damage rolls vs buildings (basically same as vanilla codex Imp fists rule).
- IW units with VOTLW get to re-roll all failed hit rolls vs Imperial fists in each round of close combat, but in return, the Imp fists also gain Hatred vs Iron warrior units.

Big Iron Warriors Detachment:
- Ordnance/Barrage weapons can re-roll the scatter dice.
- all non vehicle units are stubborn, If sitting in or on a fortification, they get fearless instead.

Man, where do I start here - Oblits with Tank hunters and 6+ FNP as troops (with Obsec in a CAD)? And Havocs with Tank hunters?? Yes please. Again, like the Alpha's, I'd be sorely tempted to ignore the big formation and just run them in a CAD. Its mean.

Big formation is solid if you want to bring the heavy artillery. Also one of, if not the only Large Army detachment in the game that includes the option to take Fortifications.


Night Lords:
Legion Traits:
- Units with VOTLW get Fear, Night Vision + Stealth.
- Raptors are troops choices
-enemy units locked in combat with Night Lords units suffer -2 Ld modifier for fear checks.

Big Night Lords Detachment:
- units can re-roll failed charges
- you can choose to automatically have night fight on turn 1, all non vehicle models get +1 cover saves whilst night fight is in effect

I really like this one. Fluffy for Night Lords. Fear still sucks against many armies out there, but for those armies that aren't immune, its going to hurt.
Re-rolling charge ranges is a good reason to take the large detachment. Especially if you take that Raptor formation as an Auxillary where they can deep strike + assault the turn they come on. Much more likely that you'll pull off that charge you need.

And for those of you who want to do a Raptor heavy army, now you can.

Word bearers
Legion Traits:
- Possessed are troops.
- Word Bearer psykers harness warp charge on 3+ when casting 'conjuration' powers
- Friendly word bearers within 6" of a dark Apostle have zealot (so not just unit the Apostle has joined)
- Models re-roll all failed hit rolls in close combat every round vs Ultramarines units. But in return, Ultra's get Hatred vs Word Bearers Units.

Big Word Bearer formation:
- all non vehicle units gain Crusader USR.
- Start of each turn, pick one character model from the detachment, they get one free roll on boon table. You can't choose a character you've already chosen in a previous turn.
Also only big formation out of the 9 legions that can take the Chaos cultist formation as a core choice.

Have to say, despite it being fluffy, I'm not that impressed with the Word Bearers one. Possessed as troops is okay, but Crimson Slaughter still do it better. Their big detachment is also kinda lackluster, especially after you compare it to every other legion.

The other issue I picked up is that although Word bearers get a boost to casting conjuration powers, they do not get any sort of extra protection against the higher chance of perils non daemon models have when using the Malefic table. Which means unless you're using a daemon prince, there is a good chance of your psykers exploding their own heads every time they try to cast a conjuration power.

On the other hand, they are one of the few traitor legions that can get access to all the marks of chaos, which is probably one of their biggest strengths.

World Eaters.
Legion Traits:
- Models with the 'psyker' cannot be taken in WE detachments.
- Berzerkers are troops.
- Units with VOTLW have Admantium Will, Fearless and Furious Charge

Big World Eaters Detachment:
All non vehicle units comprised entirely of models from this detachment get a free 2D6" move after infiltrators have deployed but before first player takes first turn (roll separately for each unit). (Note: It looks like this also does not prevent said models from charging 1st turn).
- all non vehicle models and 'walkers' from this detachment can re-roll all failed charges.

Very fluffy for World Eaters. As expected they'll be nasty in assaults, with some extra boosts to help them potentially get them into combat even earlier. Slight downside is that a lot of their strength applies on the turn they charge, but drops significantly in subsequent rounds of combat.

I haven't listed them here yet, but as a side note, the World Eaters have got several extremely powerful close combat weapons as relics. WE characters are going to be able to pile on a lot of hurt, most will probably be able to wipe out whole squads on their own. (Honestly, I think they've got some of the best relics out of all legions as there is pretty much nothing on their relic list you wouldn't take).

Thousand Sons:
Legion Traits:
- Rubric marines are troops
- If any unit with VOTLW is affected by a blessing, increase its invul save by 1 until the start of your next psychic phase.
- re-roll all failed hit rolls in each round of CC vs Space Wolves. Space wolves get hatred vs TS models.

Big Thousand Sons detachment:
- psykers can re-roll the result when rolling on the perils table.
- psykers can cast one more power than their mastery level would normally allow. Eg Ml1 psyker can cast 2 powers, ML2 psyker can cast 3 powers, etc.

Haven't had a chance to look over Wrath of Magnus book, but expecting it to be mostly the same as here. All the new Rubric units, Tzangors, Ahriman and Magnus are available.

As for rules in this book, its about as fluffy as Thousand Sons can get. It's all about casting those psychic powers. Rubrics getting an invul boost in addition to bonuses from other blessings they've had cast on them a pretty powerful rule.

Death Guard:
Legion Traits:
- all units with VOTLW have fearless and FNP USRs, but reduce their Initiative characteristic by 1. Typhus and Plague marines are not affected.
- all units with VOTLW are relentless
- Plague marines are troops.

Big Death Guard Detachment:
- Units re-roll FNP rolls of 1.
- If an enemy unit targets a unit from this formation that is 18" or more away from them, the targeted unit gains stealth whilst that attack is resolved.

Again, very strong legion rules here. Most of the army is going to be running around with Toughness 5 with FNP, bikes up to T6 with FNP. Relentless is huge too. Move and shoot havocs anyone? Also big hordes of troops that can rapid fire their bolters and still charge in the same turn. With Chaos units being able to have a bolter, pistol and CCW, that is going to add up to a lot of damage really quickly. Few armies are going to do the close-mid range combat better than they can.

Very fluffy for Death Guard - they will hit hard and soak up lots of damage. Definitely amongst the best out of all the new legion rules.

Emperors Children:
Legion Traits:
- All models with VOTLW get Fearless and 6+ FNP. If unit has an Icon of Excess, FNP goes up to 4+ instead.
- In addition, if a unit with VOTLW is slain in the fight sub phase before it has made any attacks, it can make one single attack at the end of the current initiative step before being removed as a casualty.
- Noise Marines are troops

Emperor's Children Detachment:
- All non vehicle models from the detachment have Combat Drugs. Roll a D6 before the game, apply the result to all models :
1. +1WS
2. +1BS
3. +1 Initative
4. +1 Strength
5. +1 Toughness
6. +1 Attack
It says all non vehicle models, so even the Cultists units benefit from this one.

Again, I really like this one. Fluffy for Emperors Children. Their big detachment is well worth it for the Combat Drugs - any of the results provides a solid boost for your marine units, although even Initiative boost is good - you'll strike even before most characters unless they are Eldar or Slaanesh units. And as I said before, even the cultists get the drugs, and a couple of those options can potentially turn your cheap Cultist units into real monsters in their own right (+1S or Toughness or attacks).


Final thoughts:
Overall, mostly solid rules across the board. Death Guard and Iron Warriors are the clear winners, easily some of the strongest rules.

I really liked the Night Lord and Emperors Children formations, both have nice fluffy rules and some strong potential.

Black Legion, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion all have reasonable abilities as well.

Word Bearers kinda got the short end of the stick on this one. But are still playable.

I'll cover the relics later, but World Eaters and Thousand Sons both got some very solid relics. The Death Guard likewise got some nice fluffy ones as well (including a funky one that lets you effectively turn Cultist units into plague zombies during the game).
As for the other legions, they each get 1-2 good relics whilst the rest are kinda meh, although some will still probably be taken just because they are dirt cheap.

This post has been edited by Spakka: Dec 10 2016, 11:45 AM


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Fuggorf
post Dec 10 2016, 09:44 AM
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You say Alpha Legion get the short end of the stick, but wait until you play a game against 200 cultists, and when you kill them your opponent gets twice as many walking on the board next turn.


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Spakka
post Dec 10 2016, 11:44 AM
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You say Alpha Legion get the short end of the stick, but wait until you play a game against 200 cultists, and when you kill them your opponent gets twice as many walking on the board next turn.

Yeah, okay, I misread that one. It's actually pretty crazy.


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post Dec 10 2016, 03:12 PM
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It looks like 3rd Ed Chaos are back. Those are some nasty rules. Where do you think it puts Chaos in the general power levels?
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Dec 10 2016, 05:49 PM
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Tzeench + magnus book and Pinks will be a US tourney winner unless the FaQ nerf it pretty quick.

The Tz Warp storm+ all the bonus Tz psypowers will be impossible to stops. I mean with pinks+ CSM conclave + magnus it could be easily 40-50 dice by turn 3 and like 60 pinks turning into 240 blues and more yellows after that.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Dec 10 2016, 06:46 PM


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Big K
post Dec 10 2016, 06:20 PM
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I'm excited by this, I should be able to run almost any of the legions without to much trouble. So looking forward to mixing it up, but Emperors Children, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and World Eaters are the ones I am most looking forward to. Hope to have my copy early next week.

This post has been edited by Big K: Dec 10 2016, 06:20 PM


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post Dec 10 2016, 06:44 PM
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Most of the variants are all pretty solid. My poor old EC are probably at the bottom but still pretty good.


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post Dec 10 2016, 08:13 PM
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Legion rules poop all over chapter tactics, that's for sure!

The Alpha legion rules make me a little giddy. As someone who plays very infiltrate heavy armies (all scouts for instance) hordes of infiltrating stealth power armour marines will walk right over things.

And those Iron warriors, whoa!! Now when I run my 3 defilers it will be hard to choose between Iron warriors and Khorne Daemonkin. Hmmm, maybe I should get 6.


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Spakka
post Dec 10 2016, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE
It looks like 3rd Ed Chaos are back. Those are some nasty rules. Where do you think it puts Chaos in the general power levels?

From early impressions.

Tier 1:
Death Guard are probably lower end tier 1. Regardless of whether used in a CAD or their big detachment, they can both dish out and take a lot of pain. Slow but steady. They'll just walk up the table whilst shrugging off the firepower. Anyone else trying to fight them in a battle of attrition is going to lose. Couldn't fit the Deathguard MO any better.
On another note, their ability to soak up damage is going to really mess with the alpha strike style lists.

Thousand sons - I need to look into these guys a bit more, but Magnus and decent support is looking to be Tier 1 for sure. Potential for horrendous amount of warp charge to hit the field, combined with some devastating psychic powers. And that's before you get to the rubric marines, who should easily clean up what survives.


Tier 2:
Emperors Children - solid tier 2. Their Kakophoni formation is one of the more solid core choices available. Even without the full 6 squads, at the very least its packing a lot of firepower with shred + ignores cover if you took sonic weapons. They will munch up hordes all day long.

The legion in general can be quite resilient with their banners too, with potential 4+ FNP across the board.
Only reason I don't think it will be tier 1 is due to inherent weaknesses in the base Chaos codex, and your units will be expensive to kit out if you want to maximise all the benefits.

Night Lords - Whilst the fear USR might be almost useless these days, the legion is still potent. Being able to take the solid Raptor Talon formation as a core choice instead of the chaos warband is awesome. With it, the Night Lords also boast one of the cheapest core formation options out of all the legions around, allowing you to fill up with other good support units.
I think they've got potential to do quite well. Would rate them right around the middle of Tier 2, but I think certain builds have the potential to seriously mess with a couple of the Tier 1 armies.

Iron Warriors - They bring solid firepower to the table. Oblits and havocs with tank hunters + potential for fortification shenanigans and accurate artillery puts them up there in the higher end Tier 2. I think they will miss out on tier 1 because their units and formations will be on the more expensive end. Also no marks of chaos, but they can easily make do without.

Alpha Legion - potential for sheer mass of cultists flooding the table is amusing. Big Hordes of infiltrating CSM or cultists can cause a whole lot of problems for your opponent. The other possible combo I see is people infiltrating Chosen in Rhino's to move forward and open up with a heap of melta or plasma guns on turn 1. I don't think either of these options are entirely game breaking though, so would still say its an easy Tier 2.

Black Legion - these guys have some decent potential, but a lot of their stuff is going to be expensive. I don't think their big formation is going to be Tier 1 potential. That being said, I do see a few 1st turn deep strike + assault combo's with a raptor wing, or fun with deep striking termies with combi weapons on turn 1.
All their legion unique formations originally found in the black legion supplement provide them with strong options that other legions can't get, which may make the difference.

World Eaters - I'm still not sure about their big formation. Both the Core formations are quite expensive, and the lack of any assault vehicles aside from costly land raiders is going to blunt their assault potential.
However, I'd definitely consider a Raptor Talon to be a solid choice as the auxiliary choice for these guys, or just a stand alone formation in a WE force as the WE bonuses will take that that already decent formation and pump it up a fair bit.

Word Bearers. The more I look at these guys, the less impressed I am. It feels like just about everything they do can be done better with the Crimson Slaughter. Again, as I said earlier the slight bonus to cast malefic powers is somewhat negated due to WB psykers not being daemons and thus highly likely to suffer a perils attack when casting said malefic powers.
The only really redeeming features I see is that they get the Lost and the Damned formation as a core choice (giving them the cheapest core choice out of all legions), and they still get access to all of the Marks of Chaos.

This post has been edited by Spakka: Dec 10 2016, 09:05 PM


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Dec 11 2016, 09:13 AM
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the best thing about the Kakophoni is the split fire and Init 5 and AP3 flamers (and ignores cover Possibley str9AP3 blast ohmy.gif ) . The Noise marines are stilll a static firepower list in a Mobile 7th ed. Not enough firepower to cripple armies in 1-2 turns and not enough movement/rg'd assault weapons to play tidally.... a brutal mid range game with plenty of I=5 h2h will be there sweet spot.

The extra resiliance will make them OK but they are still very vulnerable to faster assault or massive firepower (like quad Battle canon IK or Russ etc.

They need Relentless (or Salvo to not be half range) or BS2-3 Overwatch or access to an open toped transport lol.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Dec 11 2016, 09:23 AM


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Harvey Birdman
post Jan 5 2017, 12:54 AM
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I literally have an Emperor's Children Captain in Cataphractii (I just want Relentless). And an EC Contemptor for that matter.
And apparently there's no reason to put that in Traitor's Hate. / grumble


THAT SAID

Thank you GW. Pretty great.
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jan 5 2017, 01:02 AM
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after a few games the Full kakophony is too expensive for what it does. ac ouple of 10 man 2 BM units will be a good centre domination fearless force, but a full 6 squads is not that effective. I ran a 15 and 5x5 and the 5x5 were very expensive str8 (admittedly no cover saves ) blast.

Cant shoot at flyers, cant really hurt tanks that bad(AP3 really hurts the BM gun). kinda sucky.... against the Meq/Ground MC they will be great, but they dont do a lot else. The Sonics were a waste on the 5 mans most of time. and running expensive 5 mans for just the Blastmasters is kinda a shame.



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Waaagh!!!
post Jan 13 2017, 12:43 PM
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Night Lords Tzeentch daemon prince with wings with the Stormbolt plate is pretty durable. 2+ re rollable saves.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Jan 16 2017, 09:32 AM
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Big K
post Jan 19 2017, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE(Waaagh!!! @ Jan 13 2017, 12:43 PM) *

Night Lords Tzeentch daemon prince with wings with the Stormbolt plate is pretty durable. 2+ re rollable saves.


Yeah rerollable 2+ armour and jink is pretty handy along with a 4+ invo


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post Jan 19 2017, 07:53 AM
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I was talking to a few guys about that combo yesterday, theres even a meme about it, its that good. And if you have an allied CD detachment, you can take a exalted reward - Grimoire of True names, and bam, its a 2+/2+/2+ Good luck killing that.


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post Jan 19 2017, 09:12 AM
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D weapon. Or stomp.



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post Jan 19 2017, 09:18 AM
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Or an excellent argument for why we might need an 8th edition biggrin.gif


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post Jan 19 2017, 04:27 PM
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Or 4th? biggrin.gif


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QUOTE
Tip 5: Move your dead of the table quickly, if your someone who carefully packs each model, Infantry Guard is not for you. You must care as much for your model as an Commissar does for men's lives. By Dieing they have failed you and should be removed form your sight as quickly as possible.

QUOTE(Dice Array @ Dec 8 2013, 05:07 PM) *

you would ten mice should table lengthwise?

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